But no, it's the NRSV, not the RSV. Since it is likely, in the cases of the Vulgate and Septuagint, that the authors were very educated and probably meant the same thing, but were forced by the exigencies of their languages to choose certain words with various meanings, a concord of the definitions of two of these words probably sheds some light on the translators intention, and if he was a good translator, what the Hebrew actually says. I disagree with your characterization of the Nova Vulgata Editio as a new version. One of the responders answered that the question of whether the translation can be considered simpler or not cannot be answered definitively, but this wasn't the question that was asked. I have just now literally opened my Stuttgart Vulgate at random. So is the benedictine edition dispite the fact that it was never "official" (whatever that means) and was most definitely a critical edition. As a Jew, I was barely aware before of greatly different versions in the Christian Bible. I comment as a Roman Catholic, but I translate as faithful student of Greek, Latin, and (where applicable) Hittite texts. 5. The contributors danced around the question but didn't clearly answer it or say that the answer is unknown. But because someone obviously spent some serious effort on it, and for the sheer quantity (if not quality) of info it contains, I decided to preserve it here on the talk page for further discussion. It is hardly "the Vatican's 20th-century attempt at Latin prose composition". Rwflammang 17:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC). by Fr. The Latin Vulgate follows the Greek enumeration as well and, traditionally, Roman Catholic Bibles used … The ancient Jewish translation of the Psalms into Greek (the Septuagint) placed the Psalms in the same order but made different divisions between Psalms, resulting in 150 Psalms but with a numbering that is off by one through most of the Psalter; Orthodox Christians continue to use that numbering system. If the article were discussing the Ethiopic Bible, then the list of protocanon, deuterocanon and apocrypha would look very different - but it isn't. You are correct. I have altered rest of the Old Testament to the rest of the deutrocanonical books, as that is what I think is meant. The earliest known use of the term Vulgata to describe the "new" Latin translation … When Jerome was creating the Latin Vulgate in the late 300’s, St. Augustine warned him to use the Septuagint, as it was the version of Scripture that Jesus and the Apostles used. The following independent clause has been bugging me for a while, and I just now removed it. Rwflammang 14:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC), It seems like an article about the identical content exists and should be merged and redirected here. On the left, you have a critical edition of an ancient Greek text. I'm sure the people who wrote the 20th-century Latin I've just quoted are under no illusion that they're printing Latin words authored by Jerome or anyone else from the pre-20th-century history of Latin literature. John Whiteford. In short, the Nova Vulgata authors did include large bits from the Vulgate, but I am sure they would never claim they were offering up the Vulgate. The various Syrian Bibles always used a Hebrew-based text (although there was a Syro-Hexaplar version produced in the 7th Century CE). In terms of influence on their respective languages and the people who spoke them (not to mention religious life), yes the KJV and Vulgate are highly comparable. The Stuttgart's apparatus is reliable, and this means that there is no variant in any known source for the Vulgate's text to justify any of the variant readings in the Nova Vulgata. Rwflammang 14:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC), The source for these inconsistent data seems to be , which is a polemical essay directed against the Nova Vulgata. ut notum fieret nomen tuum inimicis tuis a facie tua gentes turbarentur. 3. Somebody said that something should be said about the way some books or portions of books were marked doubtful and put in separate sections because they were only found in the Greek, and how this later paved the way for Protestants to see them as Apocrypha and completely excise them from the Bible. Rwflammang 19:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC), I have removed the bizarre misstatement that the Vulgate was the first Christian Bible to use an Old Testament text translated from the Hebrew. Everywhere the old Latin texts disagreed with the results of modern scholarship on the Greek text, the NV "editors" became authors and wrote a Latin translation of the Nestle-Aland text. The Septuagint and Vulgate predate the Masoretic Text by 1300 and 600 years respectively. The translations as given are the results of my first impulse with relation to each word, and thus, in many cases the differences seen in translation may be a function of how well I know my Latin and Greek. Now, I'm not denying that this information can be useful; nor do any other Protestants I've talked to. Rocinante9 2006-08-17, I agree. A New English Translation of the Septuagint: The Psalms(New York: Oxford University Press, 2000). Many textual corruptions, additions, omissions, or transpositions must have crept into the Hebrew text between the third and second centuri… I agree that the Douay Version (and its revision by Challoner, which I may mention drew heavily from the KJV) is the closest translational equivalent of the Latin Vulgate in English. 3) The three apocrypha are omitted. A certain tension is preserved by the words επανω and super, that prevents us from saying that the spirit was somehow interacting directly with the water. ( Log Out / Rwflammang 15:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC), I have an issue with the wording "cleansed of the errors..." This presumes that only Jerome's original is "correct", and that any changes made to the text are necessarily corruptions to that purity of correctness. [Cpt|Kirk 22:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)], The comparison between the KJV and Vulgate, and whether the Douay Rheims (made from the Vulgate) is closer should not be confused. 384 AD: Vulgate by Jerome: 4114 AD Latin translation of Hebrew. 152 views. I propose abolishing the whole Catholic vs. critical distinction, I do not see how it is useful, and returning to the chronological order. You’re currently reading “Genesis 1:1 Septuagint and Vulgate Comparison,” an entry on Credo Ut Intellegam. The Vulgate is a Latin translation of the Bible, written in the late 4th century and start of the 5th, largely by the Dalmatia-born Eusebius Hieronymus (St. Jerome), who had been taught at Rome by the rhetoric teacher Aelius Donatus, otherwise known for advocating punctuation and as the author of a grammar and biography of Virgil. Rwflammang 20:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC). It is no surprise then, that the Vulgate faithfully translated the shorter chronological numbers in the Hebrew text that had been corrupted and changed in 160 AD at Zippori. Kurt Aland is a very well known critical scholar, and in his preface to NTL, he describes his apparatus as a criticus apparatus. So did the Jewish historian Josephus. I'd say its most extreme departure in most of the text is its divergence from the punctuation of the Clementine, which is not something that most people care much about, and at any rate earlier editions also diverged in punctuation. Or, I could look and see where, if, and how the Latin and the Greek word each corresponding to one Hebrew word in the original, can be made to correspond in translation, and by this process to biangulate my way through to what is the most likely the most accurate reflection of the Hebrew as produced by the concord of the two translations. He can't and couldn't canonize the bible. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. The purpose of this blog is to elucidate certain scriptural passages, phrases, and ideas, so that they might be given the most faithful reading relative to what was originally intended. This, I hope, will help in some way to dispel spurious readings and mistranslations that too often lead people — faithful or otherwise — to false conclusions as to what the Bible says, or as to what Christianity thinks. TomHennell 11:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC), I don't have a problem with your moving of the text at all, in fact, I approve of it. It may even be worthy of being considered a commentary on the books. Maybe we should simply list the books that are in the OT of Vulgate manuscripts, but which Jerome did not revise? In his prologues, he called the Apocrypha non-canonical. I think this is patently absurd. a. Jews today believe that Shem is Melchizedek because the Masoretic chronology has Shem living down past the birth of Jacob. In the second verse it is necessary to discuss the various meanings of inanis and vacua v. αορατος and ακατασκευστος their Greek renderings. καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἀπῆλθον ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν οἱ ἄγγελοι, οἱ ποιμένες ἐλάλουν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, Διέλθωμεν δὴ ἕως Βηθλέεμ καὶ ἴδωμεν τὸ ῥῆμα τοῦτο τὸ γεγονὸς ὃ ὁ κύριος ἐγνώρισεν ἡμῖν. Only post-crucifiction Jewish reform resembles Luther's Old Testament. It later says the psalter was published in 1969. The question was whether "versio vulgata" refers to language or style. As a Jew, I was barely aware before of greatly different versions in the Christian Bible. Another interesting feature show up in our next pairing: vacua, translating as “empty, void, unpeopled,” with ακατασκευαστος, which translates: “not properly prepared, unwrought, unformed.” Thankfully, these definitions are parallel, and not opposing. Those are our first two levels of meaning that can be taken from a comparative analysis: the translators intent becomes manifest, and through our knowledge of that intent, some light is shed on the Hebrew text behind both translations. By adding 100 years to the birthdates of the first five patriarchs, this shifts their times of death to before the birth of Jared (960) and the generations of Methuselah and Lamech. Does anybody know of credible sources that say otherwise? This verse is a good specimen of what I called 20th-century Latin prose composition: the NV editors have used their modern understanding of a non-Latin (Hebrew) original to produce a totally new Latin translation. If we are to say that the Bible has been inspired, we need to know what it contains. Are we sure that the name Vulgate suggests that it was written in simplified Latin closer to everyday speech? A third level of meaning however, also must be appreciated. Am I wrong? modern translations; and the modern English translations of 4 Esdras from the Vulgate (scholarship’s 4 Ezra, 5 Ezra, and 6 Ezra), such as in the NRSV. The only variant in the Stuttgart's apparatus is atque for aquae. That said there are a few things about this passage that deserve to be mentioned. I want to read with the eyes of a Hellenized Roman, and the eyes of a Roman proper — with the Eyes of the East and the Eyes of the West. Test case for accuracy of LXX vs. Masoretic: Shem as Melchizedek. The Nova Vulgata New Testament is a minor revision of earlier critical editions, namely the Benedictine which in turn is dependent on Wordworth and White. I am currently an undergraduate at the University of Chicago studying Classics (Greek and Latin) and NELC (Hittite). Rwflammang 16:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC), Iarann (talk) 07:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC), Relation of Nova Vulgata (and Novum testamentum latine) to Vulgate. This page, however, is intended to provide a brief history and description of only the versions covered in the accompanying tables: the Authorized Version (the basis of the NAF's names), the Hebrew text, the Septuagint, the Greek New Testament, the Latin Vulgate and the Douai-Rheims. Thus, if I want to know what Hebrew scripture said (short of learning Hebrew) I’m probably best off comparing and matching meanings, and then translating the common meaning. The Bible was first translated into Latin during the fourth century, and it was referred to as the Vulgate. (Then, of course, this became ironically fossilized until the 20th century in the Catholic church.) His opinion of what books are considered more important than others is just an opinion. The apocryphal additions to Esther, on the other hand, start right out by mentioning God and explaining exactly how He was at work. Jerome's flights of purple writing! Rather the spirit, in this text is already portrayed as going to work in creation, “ravaging” “rushing at,” “storming,” from the very beginning. But word α and word x correspond to the same Hebrew word — given that this is the case, I think it defensible, if one wants to get as close as possible to the original meaning of the Hebrew text, to translate the less common meanings for α and x (meanings γ and z) over the more common (β and y), if and only if you assume a decent amount of skill on behalf of both of the translators. “Ferebatur” along with the sense of “to rush” also has the sense of “to ravage,” or “to attack.” This sense of violence is even more enhanced in the Greek επεφερετο, as it consists of επι + φερω (of a similar derivation as Latin fero), tweaking the word slightly and causing to it have a greater sense of urgency and violent interaction with its object than just φερω alone. Back around 1990, the present author heard a lecturer on archeology say that since the Septuagint (LXX) had an extra 1000 years in the genealogical list found in Genesis 11, he felt it permissible to date civilizations 1000 years earlier than what the Masoretic text would allow. ( Log Out / Indeed, St. Jerome used the Septuagint to begin his translation of the Vulgate Old Testament in 382 ce. Perhaps I am missing something. A "critical edition," in my line of work (Classics professor) and also for Biblical scholars, is an editor's attempt to consistently reconstruct some old text. The Septuagint added 100 years to the birthdates of the first five patriarchs versus the dates which appear in the Masoretic and Samaritan texts. Furthermore, the Vulgate was not in a standard edition, with both Jerome's translation of the LXX Psalms and the Hebrew form of the Psalms being interchanged in various manuscripts of the middle ages. It is a vulgate in much the same sense that earlier revisions were, including Ximenes' and Hentenius' and Sixtus' and Clement's; they all corrected the text to a greater or lesser extent to better accord with the Greek. Frankly, in many cases all you have to do is to read them and it's clear they're not of the same calibre as the canonical books. The timeline is anchored to a date of 586 BC for the destruction of Solomon’s Temple. A perfect equivalent would be a copy of the NRSV that collates against the RSV in an apparatus; by the logic you have offered here, such a text would be "a revised, critical edition of the RSV." Change ). Note: this timeline yields a total of 391 years […] Keep in mind that, This page was last edited on 17 October 2020, at 17:14. Following the Renaissance, a common opinion among some humanists was that the LXX translators bungled the translation from the Hebrew and that the LXX became more corrupt with time. In the beginning God created heaven and the earth, The earth was unseen [invisible] and unwrought, and darkness was over the abyss, and breath of God bore down upon the water. The most prevalent meaning for “inanis” is “empty, void” while the most prevalent for αορατος, its correlate is “unseen, invisible, and obscure.” It should be appreciated that the difference between a world that is empty (whatever “void” means) and a world that is “unseen” and “invisible” is very large. Historically it is is interesting that during much of the Roman history the Latin language often took a back seat to Greek for many things in Roman society. Augustine's Discussion of the Septuagint in his City of God. 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